‘What a week that will be,’ says Jeroen Woe (41). And that while they don’treally feel part of the showbiz world and they kind of hate premieres, saysNiels van der Laan (41). Because yes, being reviewed remains difficult. Whenasked how he can deal with that: “Moderate. Two stars for me.”
It is not without reason that we talk about dealing with and the consequencesof criticism, because that is the theme of their new cabaret program NG.Part of this topic arose from responses to their wildly popular TV show Untilhere successor to the equally successful The Quiz. Van der Laan: “We noticefrom the reactions to that that some subjects are very sensitive.”
In NG we see the ‘theater-Jeroen’ and the ‘theatre-Niels’, as they call itthemselves: they are not themselves, but they play themselves. Just like theyplay a collector, a confidant, a well-known singer and a doctor. Theperformance is a biography of Jeroen Woe and the mysterious title of theperformance appears to be the phonetic rendering of his surname in Chinese.”We had a lot of fun with the idea of making a performance about one of usas a duo,” said the main character.
Van der laan & Woe – NG. Premiere 8 Oct, Stadsschouwburg Haarlem. Touruntil June 17. Inl: vanderlaanenwoe.nl
We hear about Woe’s Chinese and Jewish background and about his history withcancer. That makes Woe a ‘Jewish cancer Chinese’, concludes Van der Laanhalfway through the performance. This may sound insulting, but in theperformance Woe believes that he can derive certain rights from thisqualification: he should be allowed to make jokes about Chinese people, Jewsand cancer that the traditional Dutch Niels van der Laan is not allowed tomake.
In a motley collection of sketches, songs and set changes, we see what happensto someone who is not used to being criticized. What was the source ofinspiration for this?
Woe: “In recent years, people who have always had the highest jobs and themost opportunities suddenly received criticism. On discrimination issues,metoo, sustainability. You saw that they were not used to that and often couldnot deal with it at all. That criticism is often justified, of course, but wethought it was interesting to go a step further: it is simply not nothing ifyou receive criticism and are not used to it.”
If you make a rude joke on TV that puts a group away, you also kind of say> that you’re okay with that happening
Van der Laan: “What we find so fascinating is what criticism sometimesproduces. If people have heard enough times that they are racist, they becomeone. At first they weren’t, but that’s what criticism does: it breakssomething. You saw it very nicely with the people who blocked the highway afew years ago as a pro Zwarte Piet demonstration. They were told that theywere racist and then responded along the lines of: go back to your owncountry.”
Who is to blame in this story?
Van der Laan: „We are concerned with the way in which the debate is conducted.I am also against Zwarte Piet, but you may wonder whether it is wise todismiss people as racist. [Van der Laan speelt sinds 2018 de rol van‘hoofdpiet’ in het Sinterklaasjournaal , waar sinds 2019 geen zwarte pietmeer in voorkomt, red.] It’s just like people talking about ‘cunt Moroccans’.If I were called that, it wouldn’t make me behave any better.”
Woe: “There’s nothing harder than being criticized for how you’ve always doneit. You see that with the Zwarte Piet protesters, but also when someone iscommented on his origin. The result is such a fundamental uncertainty. Thisoften manifests itself in anger and unreasonableness.”
In the performance Jeroen tries to be more authentic in response to criticism,but he actually achieves the opposite.
Van der Laan: „We really wanted the Jeroen in the performance to radicalize inbeing authentic. If I’m only allowed to find something about what I really am,then I’m going to be all that, is his reasoning. We had to think a bit of menlike Johan Derksen. One of his last riots was about that candle, but you cansense that his stories will get more and more extreme. It’s not even aboutwhether those stories are true, it’s just his counter-reaction to what he seesas crazy correctness.”
Going on your mouth in the theater hurts less when people like your TV show
Your performance contains various sketches about political correctness: we seea conversation at the hairdresser, a collector at the door. Do you think weare going too far in correctness?
Woe: “Sometimes. I do get annoyed by people who say that you should first reada very thick book about slavery, before you can say something about racism.”
Van der Laan: „I think it is okay to disapprove of racism if you have not readsuch a book. But you should not then become the advocate of less racism,because then you don’t have that card.”
Woe: “I think we sometimes go too far in correctness, but that will straightenout on its own. Sometimes things get out of hand, but that doesn’t mean theinitial idea isn’t right.”
Van der Laan: “That is our substantive starting point for many scenes in theperformance. It is about the superlative that often follows in response tocriticism. Like: Oh, I can’t eat meat anymore? And I’m certainly not allowedto drink cow’s milk anymore?”
Woe: „The reflex is then often even more radical: Then I will eat foie gras.Come here with that goose!”
Do you recognize that reaction?
Woo: “Certainly. I found writing certain scenes quite confronting. I recognizethe anger when you see everyone sitting in Ibiza on Instagram while you doyour best not to fly. I’m learning more and more that you shouldn’t let thingslike that get you down. You have to set your own limits and use your commonsense.”
We stole the convenience of telling something to a room from TV
When it comes to too much correctness there is also hypocrisy or hypocrisylurking.
Van der Laan: “That’s right, that’s also in the performance. We have tried tomake Jeroen use everything to show that he is good. That is actually areaction to a strange phenomenon: as a society we have agreed that you aregood if you do certain things in public. For example, appearing on TV withyour children or telling about the war. Then people automatically think: thatis a good person. While that doesn’t necessarily have to be true.”
Woe: “Such a Marco Borsato who went to sing a song on TV with his daughter.Abusing your children in such a way to show that you are good yourself, I findthat so bad.”
In your performance you sometimes make quite serious jokes. Do you dare morein the theater than in ‘Even tot hier’?
Woe: “I think different rules apply in the theatre. We also really enjoypushing the boundaries on TV, but I do think you have a certainresponsibility. If you make a rude joke on TV that puts a group away, you alsokind of say that you’re okay with that happening.”
Van der Laan: „And an essential difference is that people cannot leave thetheater to get chips. Excerpts from Until here should be able to stand ontheir own because people can view them individually. We had to get used tothat in the beginning. In the theater we make quite a lot of bad jokes, but wedare to do that because people see the whole and can hopefully place it in acontext.”
Have you gotten better at the theater through your TV work?
Van der Laan: “I think so. We used to feel very much like a fourth wall in thetheater, while now we can pretend to be ourselves on stage much better. Wehave stolen the convenience of telling something to a room from TV.”
Woe: “We are now more daring in the theater. Going on your mouth hurts alittle less if you know that people already like your TV show.”
Van der Laan: „Due to the frantic pace at which we Until here By the way, wehave also started to work much more efficiently for our theater performances.”
Until here can be seen weekly on NPO1 from Saturday 12 November.Thursday October 6 makes Until here chance to win the Golden Televizier